switching netbsd-5 to modular xorg, again, this time really

[Greg Troxel]

We've talked about this multiple times. Bulk builds on 2014Q2 are
showing massive failures on netbsd-5. The underlying issue is that
netbsd-5 base system xsrc is really old, and enough things need newer
that we are increasingly having to work hard to get new enough for them
and coexist with old. At this point I think it's a losing battle, and
there's no good reason to try. Using modular xorg works quite well, and
I've been building on netbsd-5 with it for quite a long time.

Therefore, it's my opinion that normal users on netbsd-5 (which could
hit EOL soon anyway, given that netbsd-7 is already branched) are better
served by modular.

The only real objections in the past have been (more or less) "It's too
bad pkgsrc doesn't work with native" and "if we fix problem Y, it will
probably be ok". I am sympathetic to these views. But at this point
it's clear netbsd-5/xsrc isn't getting the attention it needs.

So I plan to switch netbsd-5's default to modular tomorrow, so it's in
plenty of time for 2014Q3.

(Of course, any user who doesn't like this can just set X11_TYPE -- all
I'm talking about is the default value, which affects the standard
binary packgaes.)

[Thomas Klausner]

Post by Greg Troxel
So I plan to switch netbsd-5's default to modular tomorrow, so it's in
plenty of time for 2014Q3.

Go ahead!
Thomas

[David Holland]

Post by Greg Troxel
We've talked about this multiple times. Bulk builds on 2014Q2 are
showing massive failures on netbsd-5. The underlying issue is that
netbsd-5 base system xsrc is really old, and enough things need newer
that we are increasingly having to work hard to get new enough for them
and coexist with old. At this point I think it's a losing battle, and
there's no good reason to try. Using modular xorg works quite well, and
I've been building on netbsd-5 with it for quite a long time.

The other option is to update X in -5... I've thought for some time it
would be good to do this, despite the compat costs.

(Is there anything major that precludes just syncing it with head? I
would expect perhaps a few build problems, but that sort of thing
should be easily sortable.)

Someone would have to do it, and while I probably could it would be
crazy of me to take anything big on anytime soon. Is anyone at all
interested in doing this?

If not, we should certainly go ahead on switching pkgsrc over; but it
seems to me that this decision should be made explicitly, not by
default.

I'm adding tech-x11 and hoping this doesn't cause a furor.

[Thomas Klausner]

Post by David Holland
The other option is to update X in -5... I've thought for some time it
would be good to do this, despite the compat costs.

Now that the release process for NetBSD 7.x has started, I really
don't see the point.

Not that I want to tell other people where to use their time, of
course :)
Thomas

[Robert Swindells]

Post by David Holland

Post by Greg Troxel
We've talked about this multiple times. Bulk builds on 2014Q2 are
showing massive failures on netbsd-5. The underlying issue is that
netbsd-5 base system xsrc is really old, and enough things need newer
that we are increasingly having to work hard to get new enough for them
and coexist with old. At this point I think it's a losing battle, and
there's no good reason to try. Using modular xorg works quite well, and
I've been building on netbsd-5 with it for quite a long time.

Which video card families have been tested with modular xorg on
netbsd-5 ?

Would it be possible to switch to using userspace of modular xorg but
keep using the server from base ?

Post by David Holland
The other option is to update X in -5... I've thought for some time it
would be good to do this, despite the compat costs.
(Is there anything major that precludes just syncing it with head? I
would expect perhaps a few build problems, but that sort of thing
should be easily sortable.)

I think it would need to sync with a point older than head, the
version of the intel video driver in -current (and pkgsrc) needs
KMS and building an older version looks as if it needs an older
server.

Robert Swindells

[Greg Troxel]

Post by Robert Swindells

Post by David Holland

Post by Greg Troxel
We've talked about this multiple times. Bulk builds on 2014Q2 are
showing massive failures on netbsd-5. The underlying issue is that
netbsd-5 base system xsrc is really old, and enough things need newer
that we are increasingly having to work hard to get new enough for them
and coexist with old. At this point I think it's a losing battle, and
there's no good reason to try. Using modular xorg works quite well, and
I've been building on netbsd-5 with it for quite a long time.

Which video card families have been tested with modular xorg on
netbsd-5 ?

I don't really know. But modular is what you get on netbsd-4 with
pkgsrc :-)

Post by Robert Swindells
Would it be possible to switch to using userspace of modular xorg but
keep using the server from base ?

Actually, the two are quite disconnected. You can run the base server
by just running it (from /usr/X11R7), regardless of any settings in
pkgsrc, and I do this on some systems. What we're really talking about
is which client libraries are used as dependencies.

Post by Robert Swindells

Post by David Holland
The other option is to update X in -5... I've thought for some time it
would be good to do this, despite the compat costs.
(Is there anything major that precludes just syncing it with head? I
would expect perhaps a few build problems, but that sort of thing
should be easily sortable.)

I think it would need to sync with a point older than head, the
version of the intel video driver in -current (and pkgsrc) needs
KMS and building an older version looks as if it needs an older
server.

Changing X in -5 strikes me as a huge pile of work, not necessarily ok
(stable is supposed to be stable, and while the X in -5 works, the real
issue is that it isn't happy to be dependencies for lots of new stuff),
and not likely something that will have a volunteer give that -5's EOL
date is presumably less than 6 months out, and no one has been talking
about it.

Changing the default is a one-byte change, and lots of people are
already running it that way (X11_TYPE=modular), so it's quite safe.

We can always flip it back if -5 xsrc gets updated.

[Greg Troxel]

Post by David Holland

Post by Greg Troxel
We've talked about this multiple times. Bulk builds on 2014Q2 are
showing massive failures on netbsd-5. The underlying issue is that
netbsd-5 base system xsrc is really old, and enough things need newer
that we are increasingly having to work hard to get new enough for them
and coexist with old. At this point I think it's a losing battle, and
there's no good reason to try. Using modular xorg works quite well, and
I've been building on netbsd-5 with it for quite a long time.

The other option is to update X in -5... I've thought for some time it
would be good to do this, despite the compat costs.
(Is there anything major that precludes just syncing it with head? I
would expect perhaps a few build problems, but that sort of thing
should be easily sortable.)
Someone would have to do it, and while I probably could it would be
crazy of me to take anything big on anytime soon. Is anyone at all
interested in doing this?
If not, we should certainly go ahead on switching pkgsrc over; but it
seems to me that this decision should be made explicitly, not by
default.
I'm adding tech-x11 and hoping this doesn't cause a furor.

I note that there has been no furor :-)

I have committed the change. I realized that even if newer xsrc bits
are pulled up, pkgsrc has to target a formal release in bulk builds, so
the newer xsrc needs binary compat and then we need a new 5.x and then
we can target it. So that really seems too hard, and not worthwhile
(for me to spend time on; everybody makes their own call of course).